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Tom Kowalski's 'The Point After': Marinelli wrong to play it safe on returns
by James Schmehl | MLive.com
Thursday September 11, 2008, 11:38 PM
Mike Furrey failed to make a strong impression as the Lions punt returner in their season opener last week.
In three punts Sunday, Furrey called for a fair catch twice with the other ball kicked out of bounds.
And, according to Lions coach Rod Marinelli, he's perfectly OK with that.
Marinelli recently told reporters that returners will probably call for a fair catch at all times this season - a decision Lions insider Tom Kowalski says won't work to Detroit's advantage.
"I think that Marinelli's approach is a poor one," Kowalski said on his hour-long weekly radio show on WDFN-Detroit. "When you basically concede that you're not even going to try to return a punt because you live in fear of getting an illegal block in the back or a holding call that's going to put you back - I don't think that that's anyway to approach it."
Brandon Middleton, who was cut last month and then signed Tuesday, averaged 33.8 yards on four kickoffs in the pre-season.The Lions haven't returned a punt for a touchdown since 2004, when Eddie Drummond went 83 yards against Jacksonville and Kowalski says if Furrey, who hasn't handled kicks on even a consistent basis since he was with St. Louis in 2004, isn't the man for the job, the Lions need to find someone who is.
"You need special teams to win and if you don't have that return guy, then you go out and get him," Kowalski said.
Marinelli said he plans to use recently signed wide out Brandon Middleton, who averaged 33.8 yard on four kickoffs in the pre-season, exclusively on kickoffs.
Listen to Killer's entire one-hour show as he breaks down the Lions' home opener against Green Bay and key concerns Detroit needs to focus on, including, of course, its defensive line.
Killer's right. It's admitting failure.
I know I'm ragging on Elmer yet again, but how can it not be his fault?
First off, Kwan is a jedi night. Second of all, just look at the personnel/coaching decisions made in the pre-season.
Rod didn't straighten out any return game, deciding to cut the few that were returning. Then we are scrambling game one of the REGULAR season looking for someone to try out?!?!
I hope this week's game turns all this around but to me it's just anotoher sign of poor preperation and a team not being ready. I put it all on FUDD!!!
OVERMATCHED and UNDER PREPARED and unlikely to outsmart many.
When he came here he was to bring if anything, a strong work ethic, a toughness and a team focus on basics and fundamentals...oh yeah and develop a CRAZZZY menancing defensive line.
Add Rod the retard's report card up and I'm seeing nothing but F's.....in his BEST SUBJECTS?!?!?
COWHER'S THE CURE!!!
They draft a kr in k.moore in the 5th and cut him before he has a chance to show what he's got.
Then they sign someone else's 5th round pick for the kr and they don't start him.
i just read jamie samuelson's blog and he about sums it up for me...
"Some fans were jacked up for this season. They did think something different was going on here. Now, they think it’s all the same. And if the Lions lose Sunday, they’ll be convinced of it."
I'll be at the game and will be convinced after the first few Green Bay possessions if the lions Defense is a joke or not. I still am mind-boggled at how they swarmed after ball carriers in the preseason and then did'nt show up for the opener. I thought they were supposed to "lead the league in effort".
I find this an interesting stance by both "Killer" and Marinelli. On the one hand, Marinelli doesn't want to risk penalties on punt returns but "Killer" wants the returner to return the ball. Actually, I would venture to guess that on a statistical basis, Marinelli's approach is probably more advantageous than not. Look at it like this, if the returner does nothing more than either fair catch the ball or let the ball bounce out of bounds/end zone then, yes, the Lions are not starting with the NFL average of 10 to 12 yards from the point of reception but are they really starting off any worse? So, Furrey fair catches the ball at his on 26 yard line then, he's starting 6 yards ahead of the 20 which is where the Lions would start if the ball bounced in the end zone.
Again, it's interesting but if the Offense clicks like it's supposed to then, it's all pretty moot anyway. Besides, how many teams have returners that take the ball even remotely to the house other than the Bears?
I was thinking today how cool it would be if the Lions had a BIG name franchise player. Someone that can legitimately argue that they are in the top 3 of their position. Actually strike that, I would take just a really famous person like Ellen DeGeneres or Usain Bolt. Maybe Bolt could be our return man. We could cut out all of the pads except for the helmet and some styrofoam shoulder pads. No cutting, no juking, just straight up the middle at 6'5" 190 lbs and 23.11 mph.
The station needs to figure out how to clean up the audio. I'm no expert, but the constantly changing volume levels and the echo effect from the callers is really distracting.
As for Killer, he's doing great. What can you say? He's been covering the Lions for a long time. He's been there from Fontes all the way through now.
Bolt would not work out in the NFL. Nor do any pure speedsters. 6'5" 190 pounds running up the middle, no matter how fast, spells instant Boltmeal. He'd get crushed. The best place for him is a 3rd safety to run down receivers after the corners blow their coverage.
Wow. Not even trying on returning kicks?
Speaks volumes for our special team and coaching ability.
Special teams should be looked at as an opportunity to make a gain on a "free play".
Players running all over the place, lack of 7 players in the box....it should be an opportunity to try and gain field advantage.
With respect to penalties. What? Has he thrown the idea of discipline out the window for special teams?
Marinelli's view on special teams might be synonomous with "Detroit's Kool Aid taste reeks, so get rid of the gatorade jub and throw in the garbage". Nothing like taking care of the problem directly.
I guess we are overpaying our special teams coach now. He only needs to concentrate on 1/2 of what he used to.
That is just unacceptable to me. To admit failure without even trying.
With that logic, they should just concede the 7 points on D each time and save everyone the trouble.
11andFive- What are you talking about "moot point". The return game used to be one of the few bright spots on this team. I can't believe it has been 4 years since they returned one for a td. Not everyone can have a Hester but we could use another Mel Gray, Glyn Milburn, Terry Fair, Desmond Howard, Eddie Drummond or heck even Larry Foster. It is an important part of the game, and Marinelli's statements regarding the return game shows how inept he is at running a team.
-Been Kool-Aid free since 2005
Maybe Marinelli could use the returners position as a training tool if he's not going to use it as part of his offensive arsenal.
For instance, let's say that Foster blows his assignment (Having trouble imagining that? I didn't think so.) He's now our designated kick returner. Let him see how it feels to get hammered.
If this is true, that Marinelli is willing to forgo the opportunity to score using the return game, then he's clearly not the answer we hoped he was. I think there must be more to this story than we're being told.
Detroit, there are no saviors out there to resurrect this franchise. Anybody with the skills necessary wouldn't entertain the notion as long as Ford holds the title to the team. There is absolutely no commitment to excellence... never has been.
Wow, not attempting to return punts because of a chance of a penalty????? I'm surprised we even run any offensive plays, we might have a holding call or illegal procedure and lose yards.
If I'm the other team and I know the Lions are not going to try to return, doesn't that allow my punter to not have to worry about angling the kick and just kick away every time? Teams don't kick to Hester, they rather kick it short and out of bounds then long and give him a chance to return it. The strategy is severely flawed and also non fan friendly as it takes away the opportunity of seeing one of the most exciting plays in football. This is why Rod was never a head coach before now and wont be again after he leaves here.
To me this says that the coaching staff and front office did such a bad job puttin' this roster together that they have no other option at PR than to put a "starter" in at the position and tell him to fair catch. Essentially conceding any attempt at getting field position on a pr before they've even set foot on the field. Why tell anyone anything? Just do it. I'm really starting to wonder about the brain trust on the sidelines. They seem to be making one questionable call after another (Cherilus can't play due to lack of depth, Furrey on PR, etc...) this one is just adding to the list and we haven't even played game 2. *scratches head* very strange and frankly a little chilling.
Tom claims that tackling is a skill and that poor tackling is a talent issue. He then goes on to say that the Lions have tackled well at times, but not consistently.
To my mind, the poor tackling last Sunday was NOT a talent issue. Our defenders were outplayed, intimidated and psyched-out by their opponents. They had no chance to develop confidence or momentum. In short, they succumbed once again to the 'losing culture'. That is why they are not consistent. Success breeds success, but failure is a deep pit. Our Lions can compete and win, but the coaches and leadership on the field are not yet strong enough to inspire top performance each week.
There are no easy solutions. Rod Marinelli is on the right track with his overall approach, but he needs to be tougher on the coaches or replace them.
Okay that's it..... where do I sign up for this job??? All I have to do is stand out there and when the ball comes my way I throw up one hand and then catch the ball??? and I can get 6 figures for this??? sounds like a pyramid scheme to me.. how many others do I have to sign up?
how much clearer does marinelli have to be in acknowledging his own incompetence? a lack of confidence in his team is merely a reflection of his own inability to coach. how similar is this to marty "taking the wind"?
rod will go down as yet another clown who came to detroit, failed, and either returned to another football team as an assistant or was never seen in the NFL again.
these are players YOU wanted, rod. players that supposedly know YOUR system. no excuses.
what actually happened with the return issue: they had every intention of bringing middleton back, and had reliable information that nobody was going to steal him. marinelli, admittedly biased toward D linemen, was really afraid of cutting any D linemen, and had reliable information that ANY of our 11 D linemen would not make it to the practice squad, another team would claim them.
knowing that somebody would probably play themselves out of a spot or get put on the IR (safe money was on campbell) and that he could bring middleton back after the first week, have 5 WR, have a pretty good KR/PR, and just have to worry about the blocking, he went one week with furrey at return man. he figured we would win pretty handily, and could afford the poor returns for one week. he expected our offense to score 21-28 points on atlanta's weak defense (abraham and milloy notwithstanding) and carry us to a victory. he did not plan on our players forgetting how to tackle, and giving up 21 points in the first quarter. this is probably due to the fact that ALL of our defensive players played very well in the preseason.
lionise: tackling in football is just like rebounding in basketball. it's all about desire. london fletcher is 5'7" and goes about 240-250. nobody in the league, including brandon jacobs, jamal smith, clinton portis, want to be tackled in the open field by london fletcher because he hits like a steam roller. he WANTS to make the ball carrier feel pain. he WANTS the TE to be afraid to go across the middle again. only sims, alexander, and bullocks WANT to hurt people like that. the rest of them are just trying to get the guy on the grass.
hookem: i am no athlete, but i build and install college/pro locker rooms for a living.
i am 6'1 225 lbs, with a gut, but not obese. i would run a 40 in about 5.5 or 6.0. i am not fast. i can, however, catch any football thrown anywhere near me.
because of my job, i once had occasion to field punts from the punter at bowling green, he was just warming up and kicking into dead space, and i was waiting for an electrician, so i asked him if i could try to catch some. he said sure.
it was nearly impossible. the punt goes about 2 miles up, and you're sure its going to land in the 10th row behind you, so you start backing up. and then the air falls out from under it and you're trying to get up to the 10 yard line to catch it. also, it has reached terminal velocity by the time it gets to your hands, and you might as well be trying to catch a medicine ball dropped from the top of the stadium. the first one i actually caught gave me a giant hickey across both biceps. i only caught one more after that (out of 30 or so) because i started trying to catch them with just my hands. the electrician showed up, and i wanted to catch another before i had to leave, so i took another across the biceps. this one landed point first and gave me a nice charlie horse in the bicep, it was purple then yellow, for about 2 weeks.
in short, no, you do not want that job.
I would have Drew Stanton return kicks
Sincerly John L Smith.
I've been hammering this point for the last few weeks about Marinelli's BS approach to Returns. You need playmakers and I think Killer is finally dead on in his talent comments!
I can't stand the arrogance of chargers GM AJ Smith but I have to give him credit because he drafts for needs. (Darren Sproles KR) Cromartie
(PR) Weddle (Special teams) and all 3 are playmakers!
Millen drafts for 2nd round bust. Too many to name. How can Alama-francis be deactivated for Corey Freakin Smith (journeyman)? When is the last time Raila opened a hole on 3rd and 1 but the lions coaches say he blocks after the play
BLAH BLAH BLAH.
Frustrated Lions fan.
SoCalTony,
Whats up brotha! Yeah if you recall I've been screaming for a KR/PR myself. I can't believe were gonna use Furrey as a PR! Middleton will do just fine with KR but Furrey as a PR, WTF!!!! We need to cut Cody's sorry azz and bring up Moore or Allen Ervin from our practice team.
Killer,
I see you've deleted my comments from last night again. Your a real piece of work buddy! You don't know how to take any criticism! What kind of reporter does that? A bad one if you ask me.
click.... killer aint checking these boards... some moderator making 10 bucks an hour at GV state is deleting your content....
"Killer", Say it isn't so, first it was an inept GM. Then you tell me the Lions don't have any talent. And now you tell me the Lions head coach and coaching staff are incompetent. Not to mention the Owner is totally clueless. It can't get any worse, can it? Next you'll be telling me that Lions aren't king of the jungle, anymore.
Let me get this straight. Gosder isn't playing because he backs up Backus and they don't want him to get hurt.
We cut everyone who returned kicks in the preseason and call fair catch to reduce the risk of penalities and injuries.
How actually are we leading the team in effort? #1 in trying to tackle???
thank goodness for tivo so I can enjoy the day and waste half the time watching the lay downs.
Play the rookies, period. It's not like they are learning playing behind who we have out there.
Any one with a draft magazine can do better than Millen. The year he took Raiola, the centers were graded at a C+ and we've seen the production ever since. Alexandar wasn't in the draft magazine but we traded up to get him in the second. Had a good rookie year though.
Time to wait for Millen's next hire and the new draft magazine.
popeww,
Yeah man your probably right about the GV State grad. lol 10 bucks an hour seems kind of high too, their probably not making a thing. I think PistolHal is one of the mods, why else would his ignorant comments be allowed to be posted and legitimate posters that are true Lions fans like myself get deleted. My comment that got deleted last night was exactly the same as my comment this morning at 9:35 without the message to Killer. I really wish these idiot mods would hurry up and graduate so we can get some real employees at mlive. This post will probably be deleted but I'm sure we'll all see idiot postings like ShallowHal and lionsuck99s.
Didn't we bring in a couple thousand career special teamers from the Bucs?
FIRE KWAN!!!
I was just in checking out the Lions forum. Why in the world on God's green earth would you ever think Bill Cowher would ever want to become part of the Lions organization? I just don't get your guys' way of thinking. Takeo Spikes and Johnathan Vilma didn't want to come to live in Detroit. Why would a white boy like Cowher? Get real people!
In reference to Cherilus... I don't get this very much, either. In all the talk around the draft wasn't he projected to NOT be a first-rounder because he played left tackle last year due to an injury on the team- and ISN'T ALL THAT GOOD AT IT? His natural position is right tackle. If they aren't going to start him because they want to save him to play badly on the left in case of emergency... wow, what a plan...
Fine state of affairs
Unbelievable
Can't believe it
Know what I mean?
You just faircatch punts?
Oh tell me it's not true
Unbelievable
Hope it's just a head game to confuse the packers
Against all the normal thinking
Lions are confusing me
whylionswhy
i want Cowher too.. and I know you think it is not likely, but money talks and Cowher is the type of guy who may like the challenge of turning around a franchise... plus going from Pitt to Detroit, seems like a good fit
it may not be likely, but let's go after the pretty girl before we take home the fat redhead
the PR thing burns me.. just like saying we don't need that facet of the game.. we are not good enough to just cut out parts of the game and expect to win.. I am starting to tire or coach Rod.. I just need to forget about last Sunday
go LIONS
VIDEO!! How kewl is that?!!?
I've been waiting for video of this type on Mlive.com for years.
I look forward to next weeks show!!
GO LIONS!!!
I'm just hoping and praying that last weekend was a nightmare and everyone "shows up" for the real first game of the season. We can lose every game outside of our division and sweep the teams in our division and still make the playoffs. We need to make the playoffs for the rest of the league to start respecting us and get us some prime time games. Thanksgiving isn't gonna cut it every year. Until then, other than our draft picks (i.e. Roy, CJ, Sims) we're gonna continue to have trouble signing big name free agents without going bankrupt in the process.
wow am I becoming pessimistic...
Cowher wouldn't succeed with the Lions because everyone above him would STILL screw it up.
The guy at the top is responsible for everyone below... until that person is different than WCF, we're stuck and it'll suck.
Lets see if Carlito understands two characteristics regarding the special teams.
1 - we don't want to risk penalty when we return kicks, so we'll fair catch.
2 - we won't kickoff deep wanting to risk kick return for a touchdown.
Carlito, even Carlito is at a loss for words, is Carlito. This is not NFL quality thinking by the Lions, and this amateurish thinking showed up last Sunday in Atlanta to the tune of 34-21 Falcons who going into the season we considered the worst team in the league.
Do you believe in now ask the Lions. How can Carlito believe when this is the philosophy?
The Lions will have a top 5 pick in the 2009 draft, now that's something Carlito can believe in after seeing the tape of the first game.
To me it appears our defense took some lessons from the Ford Field security team. Do you guys remember how long it took them to capture that guy holding the fire millen sign? They made him look like Barry Sanders with all his jukes and jives.
It's pretty sad in a division game that the biggest highlight is of a fan running around Ford Field with a fire Millen sign.
I can somewhat understand having your punt returner fair catch every punt if you're going to send 10 guys in and try to block every punt.
But, in response to that, I'm sure Marinelli would say that they don't want to do that because they might get a roughing the kicker call.
Guess what Rod. When you expect the worst, most times, you fail.
Rod, don't you preach playing EVERY snap? Conceding Punt returns, isn't that just like taking that play off?
So what you mean is we play every snap OTHER than special teams snaps?
This is right up there with the dumbest and wimpiest professional atheletics philosophy or strategy I've ever heard. Did Marinelli forget that his football team needed special teams ---like oops that's right we need special teams players too. I mean this was a huge problem last year and wasn't addressed one single bit ---Rod ever heard of a list ---it's a column of written words, usually numbered, that describe things to accomplish. After seeing how pathetic the Lions looked in Game 1 and now hearing the absolute spew that's coming from Marinelli (exactly the same excuses and plans he used last year), I've all but lost all hope that this guy can head coach. Unless this team shows a 1000% improvement and wins against GB, you can add Marinelli to the scrap heap of former Lions players, coaches, GMs, etc. Just another ill prepared uninspiring Lion employee.
RODS ONLY DOING THIS
because he doesnt want to lose the great special teams coach stan kwan as other teams are on the verge of giving him a head coaching job.
OR WORST YET
take rods job-you must admit-special teams looked a whole lot better than rods defensive line and team.
Can't you guys get it, its the same every year, " we are going to make the playoffs" then we lose almost every game. Come down to reality, even Barry Sanders seen it when he quit, the Lions will never have a chance if Ford keeps ownership, he don't know who to hire for what position to get the people we need on the field. F*$K the lions
CORVETTE80
this is the year,sure we lost a heart breaker but it was against a high quality atlanta team who we took for granted and a road game. rod didnt even have his best players in the game because he was so sure they would win it easily. remember we went 4-0 in presason and beat the world champ giants-when we beat this pack team sunday you will see playoffs are finally here,buy your tickets now and you can brag, i believed in them when no on else dared.
LIONS GREAT IN 2008-PLAYOFFS AND BEYOND!!
We had it all wrong fellas. We ASSUMED that Marinelli meant that we would be emphasizing the run when WE had the ball!
BODDEN
should of been starting and playing more-fisher should of never got into the game, dizon should of got more plays, cherlious should of been in there some, middleton should of been returning kicks they should of tried running felton on short yardage plays-on and on, where you been ?? dont you read the articles or just skip and read the bloggers comments??
ALSO
i heard rummers it was really hot in atlanta and very humid and that turner sweats alot so it was like trying to tackle a greased pig-they'd have him caught and somehow he'd break free-you think they could control that better in a domed stadium but i guess it just traps the heat like a green house-guess it helps them sell more beer. it should be cooler in detroit and they wont have that problem.
Chief,
Just ignore him brotha. You are a great asset to this forum! We all know he's an idiot. He doesnt even like the Lions and he's wasting time on a Lions blog. HAHAHAHAHA Thats all you need to know about that clown. IGNORE the IGNORANCE!
lionssuck99,
It's not hard to find out IP addresses when you know the right people. You better watch your back bub! Thats not a threat from me, its just something to think about.
We've had our annual a$$-whipping. It seems that each year we have one game where we forget to show up. Maybe Atlanta will be the only one.
We also have a tendency to win one or two games we weren't expected to...(cue music from Jaws).
One good game against a really good team... is that asking too much? I absolutely love seeing guys flying around with their dread-locks streaming from under their helmets like Al Harris (... am I the only one who thinks of Klingon warriors?). If we can beat them we can beat anyone.
lionssuck99,
I live in SC but thanks for the info. What will you be wearing? I'm sure some of my other buds on will be happy to meet you.
Don't you mean LMAO?
I will give you credit for that one. I had to laugh my ass off. LMAO!
Hey fetish. I'll admit I'm a bit of a slappy when it comes to the Lions but I'm also not a bandwagon jumper. I will never give up on the Lions. I played Defensive back in high school and was recruited by a few small schools but decided to take some time off and party instead. Too bad you can't do those years over. You know what I'm saying. I guess that's why I agree with most of your posts. Defense does and always will win championships. Just look at the Pistons, Tigers, and Wings.
I don't mind someone giving me a hard time about being a Lions fan, I just have a hard time with people who can't back it up with facts. And, i'm not talking about how the Lions haven't won a playoff game in forever and their record since Millen took over. Anyone with a computer can look those up. I guess I just want to see how the next game goes before I show up at the Bears game with my "Fire ROD" T-shirt.
That's down right ridiculous....Isn't this Pro Football? I'm smelling bad coaching and it stinks...Special teams????? What special team???? Besides hanson and harris we don't have any...I tried to stay in Rods corner but I can't anymore... So what if someone gets hurt this is football not tag...If Rod thinks his special teams are that bad what are we even doing in the league? You gave it your best shot Rod but your just not cut out to be a head coach...
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